Dieselpunks

Dieselpunk + Steampunk Culture

For some reason I don't see where I posted about the recent work I've done on the Wikipedia project. I've written a sub-page that I need everyone who's interested to review and give me feedback on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Larry442010/Dieselpunk

I need feedback such as grammar and spelling, facts (such as dates and names), and references. The biggest concern I have are having references. I can't just say something and reference a conversation posted here or at the Smoking Lounge. Dieselpunk has a reputation for not being "notable." There are gaps in the article that I really need to be able to fill if possible.

Be aware I may not use all feedback is given. I do have to decide what fits and what doesn't. If your suggestion isn't used then if Wiki allows it to be posted then you can register and go into and edit like anyone else can.

You will see an example image on the right of the page. Stefan has been so kind as to agree at my request to make one of his fantastic creations to insert there.

Please, I need feedback. After everyone has looked it over and I've made whatever changes are needed then I will send it to the Wiki staff.  

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I think I found our reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowbrow_%28art_movement%29

In the Wiki article it states:
Lowbrow is also commonly referred to as pop surrealism. Kirsten Anderson, who edited the book Pop Surrealism, considers lowbrow and pop surrealism to be related but distinct movements.[8] However, Matt Dukes Jordan, author of Weirdo Deluxe, views the terms as interchangeable. So Tome was justified in the use of the term Pop Surrealism in the context of Low Brow Art. I've updated the Talk page with this.

One thing that I find interesting is that the article hasn't been deleted and the only criticism has been this one. I don't know if I should get my hopes up or not.

Hayen Mill said:
Jonny B. Goode said:
Looks like changing the lede to "pop art" might be the ticket. (see talk page)

I agree, it also seems to make sense to me.
So you would argue that dieselpunk would be a sort of "pop" Lowbrow with roots in deco and bauhaus? Perhaps the callout for surrealist should really read [[Lowbrow (art movement)|surrealist]] then. I've changed it to reflect that, if there are no objections.

Don't get your hopes up yet, it's still early. But it's a good sign that it hasn't been redflagged out of the starting gate.

Larry said:
I think I found our reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowbrow_%28art_movement%29

In the Wiki article it states:
Lowbrow is also commonly referred to as pop surrealism. Kirsten Anderson, who edited the book Pop Surrealism, considers lowbrow and pop surrealism to be related but distinct movements.[8] However, Matt Dukes Jordan, author of Weirdo Deluxe, views the terms as interchangeable. So Tome was justified in the use of the term Pop Surrealism in the context of Low Brow Art. I've updated the Talk page with this.

One thing that I find interesting is that the article hasn't been deleted and the only criticism has been this one. I don't know if I should get my hopes up or not.

Hayen Mill said:
Jonny B. Goode said:
Looks like changing the lede to "pop art" might be the ticket. (see talk page)

I agree, it also seems to make sense to me.
Added a pic I found on Wikipedia from Bioshock, that shows the deco diesel feel to it.
After reading more William Gibson this week, it might be helpful to reference "Raygun Gothic" as an inspiration of Dieselpunk as well. It's already cataloged and referenced in wikipedia.
Added under "Dieselpunk as an art movement".

Tome Wilson said:
After reading more William Gibson this week, it might be helpful to reference "Raygun Gothic" as an inspiration of Dieselpunk as well. It's already cataloged and referenced in wikipedia.
Another reference that may serve you: article with the Otago Daily Times.
What about dropping in the term "retrofuturism" ? I think its a great term to include in a description of dieselpunk
It's in there :)

Hayen Mill said:
What about dropping in the term "retrofuturism" ? I think its a great term to include in a description of dieselpunk
And so it begins.

Someone just flagged our article for deletion review.

Discussion page for the deletion review is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Diesel...

If you go over there to post, be on your best behavior, it helps.

Also be on your best behavior here... they're watching this thread. ^_^
And people still think wikipedia doesn't have high standards...>.>

Anyway, we should discuss what we should improve about it here before bringing it up there. One of the criticisms was that:

"Like previous versions, it has major problems with original research, verifiability, and notability. "

This is understandeable. Dieselpunk is still an extremely new phenomena. Its a late Noughties - early Tenties creation, and we're just in the early tenties!

"It attempts to retroactively place creative works into a genre when their creators had no intent to do so, or likely any knowledge of it."

I think this is a very important criticism. We might be quick to say "Wolfgang Parker is dieselpunk for its distinct sound", whereas he just calls himself "punk swing". We might say "Big voodoo daddy is dieselpunk" whereas they just think they're reviving swing. We should address this more deeply.

"Unlike former versions, this article cites many sources. However, very few of them qualify as reliable sources. Most are blogs, journals, forums, or other self-published sources."

This is another important criticism, and is, once again, the "fault" of the fact that dieselpunk is VERY recent. There are no "experts" on the field, making every single source a self-published source, and therefore rendering it largely unnaceptable, according to Wikipedia's standards.

Perhaps we could try and simplify the article to the maximum by trying to base it on the Steampunk article? I get a sense that, although many sources are good, they're not addressing the main issue here. (I personally think we should try and give more emphasis to the literature part of dieselpunk, since both cyberpunk and steampunk emerged as sub-genres of science fiction and speculative fiction)

Jonny B. Goode said:
And so it begins.
Someone just flagged our article for deletion review.
Discussion page for the deletion review is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Diesel...

If you go over there to post, be on your best behavior, it helps.

Also be on your best behavior here... they're watching this thread. ^_^
References are still going to be the main criticism, as I stated from the start. Dieselpunk has been around for over a decade, undoubtedly more, but it's only been called dieselpunk for just a few years. So outside of forums and blogs where the people who are into the culture and art scene where it resides, you simply can't find the term being used by "experts," saying "that's dieselpunk." We are currently the experts, we few, we happy few, we band of brothers at Dieselpunks.org, the Smoking Lounge, the Flying Fortress, the Fedora Chronicles, et. al. (We really need a historian in our midst.)

Another problem we're going to have is that we're still perceived as a steampunk derivative. As one of the commentator on Wikipedia stated: "just keep a paragraph indicating that this is an offshoot of steampunk, which it clearly is." While it's true that some of us found dieselpunk through steampunk and while it shares a similar name, it's made obvious from the article that dieselpunk clearly isn't a derivative of steampunk. Whereas steampunk derives from a genre of literature, dieselpunk derives from a genre of art. Some of us came from the steampunk community - but others of us came from the swingpunks and the swing revival (and it's only natural to bring our music with us!), and others of us straight from the art and design community. Unfortunately, it's really hard to document that fact, even though to us it's fairly obvious. Because we live it.

It's likely that this article will get truncated and added to steampunk. Which is unfortunate, as it deserves to stand on its own, but a small victory is a victory nonetheless. And if that does happen, then in a few years time, when we are where steampunk is today, we can give it another go. But let's give this our best defense. :)


Hayen Mill said:
And people still think wikipedia doesn't have high standards...>.>
Anyway, we should discuss what we should improve about it here before bringing it up there. One of the criticisms was that: "Like previous versions, it has major problems with original research, verifiability, and notability. " This is understandeable. Dieselpunk is still an extremely new phenomena. Its a late Noughties - early Tenties creation, and we're just in the early tenties! "It attempts to retroactively place creative works into a genre when their creators had no intent to do so, or likely any knowledge of it." I think this is a very important criticism. We might be quick to say "Wolfgang Parker is dieselpunk for its distinct sound", whereas he just calls himself "punk swing". We might say "Big voodoo daddy is dieselpunk" whereas they just think they're reviving swing. We should address this more deeply.

"Unlike former versions, this article cites many sources. However, very few of them qualify as reliable sources. Most are blogs, journals, forums, or other self-published sources."

This is another important criticism, and is, once again, the "fault" of the fact that dieselpunk is VERY recent. There are no "experts" on the field, making every single source a self-published source, and therefore rendering it largely unnaceptable, according to Wikipedia's standards.

Perhaps we could try and simplify the article to the maximum by trying to base it on the Steampunk article? I get a sense that, although many sources are good, they're not addressing the main issue here.

Jonny B. Goode said:
And so it begins.

Someone just flagged our article for deletion review. Discussion page for the deletion review is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Diesel... If you go over there to post, be on your best behavior, it helps. Also be on your best behavior here... they're watching this thread. ^_^
"Whereas steampunk derives from a genre of literature, dieselpunk derives from a genre of art. Some of us came from the steampunk community - but others of us came from the swingpunks and the swing revival (and it's only natural to bring our music with us!), and others of us straight from the art and design community. "

Well, i think that many of the artists came towards dieselpunk because it was already established as a sub-genre of speculative retro-futurist fiction, not the other way around. It would be interesting to see which actually came first, the literature or the music/visual arts/etc. There's surely references somewhere in the internet about this.

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