Dieselpunk + Steampunk Culture
Jet engines and nuclear power in Dieselpunk settings?
Hi all.
A while ago I made a thread about Dieselpunk novels and to plug my own novel that I'm writing (which I would be writing more of if I hadn't been contracted to write a how-to book), and when thinking over the setting I've created. Just for a ref, I'll link my other discussion.
http://www.dieselpunks.org/forum/topics/dieselpunk-novels-my-project
That being said, the timeline of the war I've been creating would span 20 years, and as you'd expect in a massive war of epic proportions, the technology would start off with your typical World War 2 weaponry and technology, but would finish off with a sort of late Vietnam era/mid 70's military technology. All with secret weapons and lots of deliciously fantastic machinery that we all know and love, of course. Society might not progress all that much since basically the entire world is so consumed by the war that most people are interested in pulling through it than making massive social experiments (though change does occur, it is generally a necessity of the war than any thing else. Also, 20 years of wartime austerity does tend to do things to people).
But the question that bogs my mind is that when the phase of the war starts to shift away from piston-powered prop aircraft and towards jets, and submarines and ships go from steam/diesel turbines to have some nuclear capacity, what does that leave my setting with? Naturally, I have seen dieselpunk artwork showing jet powered cars and the like, but I'm thinking if it would be Dieselpunk at that phase or not?
Though I did come up with some ways of keeping the themes going, for example, while missiles were developed, the countermeasure technology was so effective that aircraft would still rely primarily on their guns to fight with the missile kill only being occasional, and the use of nuclear weapons is averted by the fact that uranium is fairly rare and significant deposits of it are discovered only AFTER the war has been concluded. But thorium was much more common place, and it was the primary radioactive used. The great thing about thorium is that not only does it produce much more energy than uranium, it is also much less dangerous and its byproducts cannot be used to create nuclear weapons.
But once again I ask the question, once my setting shifts towards that level of technology, would it become more atompunk or still have a lot of dieselpunk left over? This question has been in mind for quite some time, and then I got the idea of making the whole history of the setting a string of 'punk' settings. Hey, it could be fun if I'm gonna write novels in it for the next 30 years. :p
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Larry on -
Wow! That looks like something straight out of an Amazing Stories magazine
Komissar Hass said:Ah, found it. It was called "350", or "Burya" ("Storm").
http://www.laspace.ru/rus/burya.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya
unfortunately, the project started in 1954 and relatively successful tests were carried out in the end of the 50s, and overall it fits very well in "atompunk" and "jetpunk", even the "look":
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Permalink Reply by Eldritch Engines on -
Both power sources are a little more atomicpunk than dieselpunk (or in the crossover region between the two), but as everybody else has said, as advanced prototypes, they work. Reminds me of when someone suggested adding early jets to a Crimson Skies game, actually - that, or the radium-powered ideas of Gernsback or Hard Vacuum. The thing is, this kind of power source tends to be a bit overpowering in a dieselpunk setting - that is, jets are noticeably superior to piston engines, and atomic power is...well, atomic. It overwhelms the usual technology of that kind of setting, which is a concern in a fictional sense. Dieselpunk-ish space opera (think 1930s serials) would use atomic power quite a bit, though.
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Permalink Reply by Dan G. on -
I think that is one of the greatest challenges a writer or game creator has to deal with. = The near overwhelming speed of technical advances in war time. And, of course, the longer an "alternate" universe's war (whether done for storyline or game play) = the greater those advances become.
I believe that about the only hope for restricting those advances is as you did with the "Thorium vs Uranium". = Limit the availability of materials. I.e.- The required core materials do not exist, or the facilities on all fronts to produce the mass production units themselves have been reduced to such a state that it is impossible to meet demands. (That last would have any number of social repercussions.) The only other alternative is a World Wide Brain Fart. = Technology becomes stagnate simply because nobody can think of anything better. Unrealistic, I know, but it has been used.
Personally, I like your idea of a storyline that runs the gambit of Steam to Diesel to Atomic (to Beyond???) I know that I would sure pay to read some Military Sci-fi/Fantasy along those lines!
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Permalink Reply by Cap'n Tony on -
Well said, Dan. Though I might add the "World Wide Brain Fart" (WWBF?) is more "realistic" than you might think and has historically been an amazingly common occurence. Sometimes the "obvious" solution staring you in the face is only obvious once you think of it (as convoluted as that sounds). For example, the Aztecs had the wheel but they never invented the wheel barrel or hand cart even when such a technology would have fit well into their society and technology level and would IMO have seen widespread use the second it was invented (it could have doubled or more the productivity of their corvee-labor based engineering for city and road building).
Also there's more than just raw materials that can delay or prevent a technology: there's supplemental and seed technologies needed beforehand (electronics advanced needed for power distribution), processes (machine tools, smelting methods), engineering requirements, scientific and technological knowledge base, available population, disemination of learning (if the elites hog all learning...), availability of funding...
In the case of Atomics, it's that last one: the extreme cost (which always proves about 10x higher than forcast) is a major limiting factor and arguably nothing short of a world war could justify the extreme startup and develomental expense. I can easily see an alternate world where the "dream" of nuclear power is limited to a few dedicated deluded dreamers and major research efforts keep getting Proxmired due to exponential cost overruns...or maybe it even gets declared "impossible" or "technologically impractical" after a few high profile FUBARs.
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Permalink Reply by Salim Farhat on -
The thing about advanced prototypes, especially for Jet engines and the like, is not that they're going to be prototypes for too long in my setting. In RL, Jet flight first took place in 1939 in Germany, and even though they did have an operation Jet Fighter late in 1944, the problem was that the jet was rushed into production before the underlying technology was even completed. Also people forget that the American P-80 actually reached operational status during the war and some were sent to Europe, and they even flew combat patrols. However they never encountered any enemy aircraft. In the Pacific, they had a full squadron ready for combat... about a day or so before the war actually ended.
The problem is not that I have that much of a problem with Jet propulsion ruining Dieselpunk, because I don't think it does that, it's the whole guided missiles thing... and yes, I know there were multiple guided missiles made during World War 2 (both for ground attack and air-to-air), but to me, it took the main spirit of dogfighting. Hence the reason why I came up that countermeasure technology was far in ahead of the missile guidance, hence forcing even relatively advanced jet fighters to engage in old school dogfights for most of their combat.
But heck, even then, there can be exceptions... I mean go to youtube and watch the trailer of Ace Combat 6: Fires of Liberation. The thing starts out with a fabric covered radio and tries to invoke the look and feel of a post-war/early 50's America, and even had a giant flying fortress that's so common to both Steam and Dieselpunk. Those games had modern jets armed with nigh unlimited supplies of missiles, but it doesn't that much imagination that they were trying to go for the old time wars except with modern technology. The more I think about this, the more I realize that I can, in fact, have my cake and eat it at the same time.
Of course, I still do love the whole Golden Age of Aviation thing, so I made up that, in the 20 year conflict I had planned, both sides did have jets planned early on, but unlike the Germans in World War 2, neither of them had operational squadrons until they perfected the technology enough to have jets flying without any technical problems... which I would say is 8 years into the conflict. At that point, missiles are still highly primitive and inefficient, so guns remain the principle armament for dogfighting. Piston-powered fighters actually remain in production and service, too, for quite a while after that. This is, again, based in reality... because even though the more advanced air forces phased out piston powered air craft from frontline service relatively quickly, they still had uses for them elsewhere. The P-51 (F-51 after the war), remained in service in the US till 1957, the Spitfire also stayed with the RAF till that same year. The Me-109 (or BF-109, whichever you prefer) still served in Spain till the 1965.
The Chef said:Both power sources are a little more atomicpunk than dieselpunk (or in the crossover region between the two), but as everybody else has said, as advanced prototypes, they work. Reminds me of when someone suggested adding early jets to a Crimson Skies game, actually - that, or the radium-powered ideas of Gernsback or Hard Vacuum. The thing is, this kind of power source tends to be a bit overpowering in a dieselpunk setting - that is, jets are noticeably superior to piston engines, and atomic power is...well, atomic. It overwhelms the usual technology of that kind of setting, which is a concern in a fictional sense. Dieselpunk-ish space opera (think 1930s serials) would use atomic power quite a bit, though.
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Permalink Reply by Salim Farhat on
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(part 2)
The Hellcat and Bearcat fighters fought in South Vietnam in the early years of the Vietnam war. On a more interesting note, the P-26 peashooter, a fighter put into service in 1932 in the US, served for Guatemala till 1956! The point is, weapons technology takes a while to really become completely obsolete, and this is just the aircraft, don't get me started on small arms, tanks, and submarines.
As for nuclear power and the like... even though they would develop them, it doesn't have to be all that prominent. I once heard of a form of submarine propulsion called closed-circuit diesel engines that would enable subs to run their diesels underwater. What that means is, the diesel engine carries it's own oxygen supply independently of the rest of the sub, and as such not needing it externally. In RL, there were a lot of problems with this design, but in fiction... well, let's say they're overcome early on. Also let's not forget the awesomeness that is the German Type XXI, which seriously could destroyed allied shipping had it been operational in 1943.
I can go on forever, but I think I basically got the idea that I can make it work regardless. Also the real game breakers would come in so late during my setting it might not be all that relevant. After my conworld is intended to be dynamic and not stuck in time, even if if the dieselpunk era is my favorite.
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Permalink Reply by Cap'n Tony on
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Sounds like you've got it pretty well mapped out, Salim, and i look forward to reading your work!
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Permalink Reply by Dan G. on
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Cap'n T, - I agree that the Aztecs never invented the wheel, nor does there appear to be any surviving indications that they developed any maritime pursuits. However, those Brain Farts were a localized phenomenon. No different then tribes living today determined to remain in the Stone Age. . . Most certainly, not World Wide. And most certainly not likely to be found among massed groups of people all looking for bigger, better and faster ways to kill each other.
Sci-Fi/Fantasy stories of stone age people triumphing over high tech warriors aside, ~ in modern warfare, if you are not actively pursuing that One Up edge over your enemy . . . then you are history.
I most certainly agree that the technology has to make the dream come true. I'm sure that all sides would have loved to have had death rays, and even functional ICBMs, and orbital weapons platforms during WWII. Or even WWI for that matter. Fortunately (perhaps) for us Buck and the rest of the crowd still had to deal with those threats from within the confines of the Pulps. (LOL) Though I also don't believe that a technology has to be "perfected" before it is deployed to the field. Both Wars (and several "smaller" conflicts) saw many weapons put into use that could have benefited from further technical development. It is that "Mother of All" = Need = that drives all. In War, if there is a need, someone Will (sooner or later) find a way no matter what the "cost".
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Permalink Reply by Cap'n Tony on
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Actually, Dan, the Aztec DID have the wheel. They used it in toys. Arguably they never advanced it further due to a lack of beasts of burden to pull a large wheeled cart or chariot, but the wheelbarrel stands out as an interesting example of what was not only readily possible for them, but would have fit well into their social and technological structure. They also had advanced math and engineering and were probably only "determined to stay in the stone age" weapons-wise because they had such a cheap and easy source of obsidian for blades (volcanoes) and a stylized form of warfare tied into the same theocratic oligarchic order that traditionally dominated central America. They never pursued maritime pursuits because there was no reason too. "All they needed" was right there, and nothing but "barbarians" were across the waters. Instead they built very good roads to support land trade and conquest.
They're also not an isolated outlier in the "brain fart", "didn't notice things" ,or "openly opposed things" area. Many advances in mechanics, electronic, and fluid dynamics have been overlooked for centuries. Galleons ruled the seas for two centuries despite being much slower and clumsier than the sleeker designs that only gradually replaced them, probably because all the infastructure to build them was in place and they did the job of "carrying a lot of stuff" quite efficiently. European explorers were often amazed at the shipbuilding and navigational skills of supposedly backwards people in Indochina, yet many of these advances were ignored for centuries because "that's barbarism". China famously built an advanced fleet then tore it down...why spend all that money to visit barbarians (seeing a trend here)? In firearms, the idea of the "minnie ball" that made quick-fire rifled muskets possible and changed the course of warfare certainly could have easily been discovered two centuries earlier than it was. but it wasn't because no one thought of it or saw any reason to spend time on such an invention when "real men" stood a hundred yards away from each other in massed ranks and shot masses of chaotic round shot from smooth bores. Hell, speaking of muskets how long did it take to develop the offset bayonet despite centuries of single-shot firearms that became akward clubs after firing? The locomotive was nearly derailed (sorry) in the US due to opposition from the "canal lobby", a case where financial pressures opposed a game-changing technology that WAS known and widely employed. In a similar vein, the phone companies tried to derail the internet by insisting on chargin long distance fees on all modem traffic (you might've been paying $20 a minute to read this right now). Another modern example: the "stunning cutting edge special effects" of the Matrix with that slow motion, panning style that was so quickly copied in every movie afterwards? Tracked cameras and timing. Only a little CG to smooth it out and add texture/style/flow. Much of it could have been done in the 20's, though admittedly not nearly as smoothly. Just required someone to think about the possibilities of tracking cameras.
Any of these same factors could prevent the appearance of atomic technology in the 20th C. Heck, they've limited it's growth or advancement historically! The reactors we use are far from the most efficient way to use the power, but they're known and innovation in that area is very, very pricey. Germany is shutting down working reactors with decades of safe service life left on them post-Fukushima even though the German reactors are decades more advanced in safety and the specific causes of the Fukushima disaster (massive quake + tsunami) are not likely to be seen in Germany from anything less than a massive polar meteor strike (and in that case, a meltdown's the least of our problems).
continued...
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Permalink Reply by Cap'n Tony on
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Continuing...
And fully agree on NEED as a major tech motivator. Hence while jets were probably inevitable and no WW2 might only delay them a decade or two, I think nuclear arms and powerplants can very logically be "prevented" in an alt-history for decades if not a century or more without such a massive motivator to make up for the extreme costs. Would we have spent trillions going to the moon without the political pressures of the cold war? Possibly not.
Yet Need alone doesn't get you there if there're not the resources, socio-economic factors, manpower, available infastructure and education, and particularly in large technologies political will to make them happen. Hence why Hero's steam engine became a toy and a historical footnote rather than the start of a massive Greek investment in steam power. Even Newcomen's engine might have remained a footnote, a clever invention only good for pumping water from coal mines, had Watt not eliminated it's core inbuilt inefficiencies through a second chamber. Had the "Newcomen" steam engine appeared not in England with all its existing infastructure, existing mill technologies, number of educated engineers, and available workforce thanks to earlier agricutlural advances, and had instead popped up in the chaotic tangle of the Holy Roman Empire, would anyone with the type of knowledge necessary to cure the inefficiencies have stumbled across it? Maybe. But the odds are far lower than in contemporary England.
Okay, enough of this novel (sorry), just defending my point that technology isn't necessarily an autocatalytic thing that spontaneously appears to fill a vacuum-like Need.
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Permalink Reply by Komissar Hass on -
Very interesting vision, Cap'n.
I'd like to add a bit different angle to the discussion: in fact, there are enormous numbers of advanced military-technical devices taht existed by the end of WWI, so it is absolutely OK to place "things" developed chronologically later than the "dieselpunk era".
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Permalink Reply by Cap'n Tony on
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Fully agree, Komissar. And why stop with the "possible"? What's the point of "Retrofuturism" if you can't play with Super Science! How else are you getting to Mars but by Atomic Streamline Rocket or Gravitron Pack?
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© 2013 Created by Tome Wilson.
An interesting little article on HG Wells use of the term "atomic bomb" in his fiction:
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=1086