Dieselpunk + Steampunk Culture
just a thought.....
could Diesel/Steam stories in which the nazis didnt exist,or never came to power,be classed as Holocaust Denial?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Atterton on -
What was it Dicken's said? "The law is an ass" However being a work of fiction should likely be enough of a defence against any stupid laws like that.
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Permalink Reply by Tome Wilson on -
Denial of the Holocaust falls under the pretenses that you are presenting your work as historical fact.
Any dieselpunk story would automatically be classified as fiction by default, and Nazis weren't even around in Victorian times, so they wouldn't fit into the Steampunk paradigm.
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Permalink Reply by david bradley on -
hopefully you are right,but strange things are happening in europe at the moment.
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Permalink Reply by Tome Wilson on
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What are you referring to?
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Permalink Reply by lord_k on -
I just happened to finish a book in which Nazi rule effectively ended in 1938. It never occured to me that I'm denying the Shoah (Hebrew name of the Holocaust). And I want to see someone who'll accuse me of it.
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Permalink Reply by david bradley on
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sorry :my reply was written before i saw Tome Wilson's answer.in europe at the moment there is a lot of talk about expanding the range of things covered by holocaust denial laws. also i have read steampunk literature which goes into the 1960's and mentions the nazis.
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Permalink Reply by Philip Vandenberg on -
The equation should be rather easy: No Nazi's = No holocaust.
Your story is just a fictitious alternate version of reality where the Nazi's never existed in the first place, so that should not be a problem. The best example I can think of is the Fringe series where there actually is an 'alternate reality' where the Twin Towers are still standing. And as far as I can remember that didn't cause a stir in the United States.
Now the really strange thing is that Quantum Physics seems to even make it plausible that we actually not live in a Universe but rather a multiverse. The multi-verse would be containing all the variations of our own reality and one could theoretically contain a reality where the Nazi's did not rise to power...
Anyway, you can find more info about multiverses on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
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Permalink Reply by david bradley on
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well put point Philip Vandenberg
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Permalink Reply by Atterton on
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Another more relevant problem might be that in certain countries the use of the Swastika is forbidden. So any kind of object which features it, could get you in trouble with the law in, for example, Germany. Keep this in mind if you decide to make a model zeppelin with nazi insignia or similar.
I bought a copy of an old advertising poster in Germany. The original featured a swastika on the airship, but on the reproduction that had been removed.
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Permalink Reply by Cap'n Tony on -
Unless you make a DP world where Hitler takes over Europe and everything is all lovely and nice and Jews live in a utopian German protectorate in Isreal then no, it's not "Holocaust denial lit" by any reasonable doubt. It's Alternate History. No one accused Harry Turtledove of being a denier in his victorious CSA timeline where the Central Powers win WW1 and Hitler is just a pissed off antisemetic corporal and millions of Jews live on in Europe. No one accused Michael Chabon of denial when he wrote The Yiddish Policeman's Union where (many of) Europe's Jews are relocated to Sitka Alaska. Of course both being Jewish American probably helped, but no, it's not "Denial" just to not have a holocaust in your world. In fact, depending on the setting and how you portray Jews in it, it may become a fabulous piece of anti-antisemetism highlighting the contributions Jewish culture and people have had on the world and the evil and idiocy of history's Nazis for their crimes against them.
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Permalink Reply by david bradley on
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all good points,and well argued.thank you.however a point has been raised which needs comment:the ban on swastikas.i am not going to go through the history of this ancient human symbol as its easy to find,but i will argue that the ban is wrong and demonizes a beautiful symbol(see the Hindu examples).the Hebrews also valued it enough to decorate their ancient synagogues with,so why not publicise it and reclaim it for humanity
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Permalink Reply by Tome Wilson on
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Stefan helped us out with this issue last March. Here are his thoughts on the swastika law in Europe.
It is also to be noted that European laws are not equally respected in all European countries, or so it seems. While Northern countries (UK, France, Netherlands, Germany of course...) are rather strict about it, Southern countries tend to have a more "anything goes" attitude : in every Madrid souvenirs shops, you are likely to find small size (or not so) statues of Franco, Hitler, etc... and in Italy, unlike in Germany, all buildings from the Mussolini era are still there, complete with the fascist emblems. As for Eastern countries, just a look at Deviant Art and the profile of the galleries owners tells a lot about the kids' fascination for the nazi mythos and the large use they make of its symbols and representation in these countries.
Via Wikipedia
"In many European countries, and more specifically in Germany, according to the Strafgesetzbuch section 86a, the Number 86a article of law, it is prohibited to make any use of the swatiska that is not an historical use, under penalty of jail. Thus, even anti-nazi drawings of trashed swatiskas are paradoxically illegal because of these laws.
© 2012 Created by Tome Wilson.
