Dieselpunks

Dieselpunk + Steampunk Culture

could Diesel/Steam stories in which the nazis didnt exist,or never came to power,be classed as Holocaust Denial?

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totally understand your point. look at the labeled examples i posted.your answer proves the problem i was getting at in the original question of this discussion.(hope that makes sense)

This Swastikas thing comes up a lot in fiction and is very controversial right now.  It's to the point that Anime works are getting their Buhddist holy simbols pixilated.  TVTropes has a whole page on this.

Likewise, Native Americans used the symbol totally inependently, yet use of an "Indian Good Luck" symbol on a chain of teepee-shaped motels in the Diesel Era had to be discontinued when the war broke out. 

Yes, it's an ancient symbol far older than the NSDAP, and those Nazi assholes went and coopted and corrupted the whole thing in the western world for over half a century now. And I fully agree it needs to be reclaimed by the forces of good/sanity. 

At the same time, if your art/story/etc. is going to be marketed in Europe and America you need to be cautious of the backdraft, because face it, the symbol currently has that association in the popular mind, right or wrong.  And using it risks appealing to the wrong audience while alienating the right one.

It's like the "Rebel Flag" here in the US (Confederate Battle Flag). It personally doesn't offend me to see it worn/flown/displayed and I don't personally associate it with slavery or racism, but for large swaths of the US population it's irreperably tied to hate and oppresion so I won't fly it or wear it myself because I don't want to be associated with that or give even accidental implied support to those who have flown it and continue to fly it in hate (KKK, etc.).

have you seen the "Cleveland Show" about the none-racial Confederate flag?

'Fraid not.  Half an episode of "Cleveland" was honestly too much for me.  As if "Lowest Common Denominator" wasn't enough anymore, so he divided by zero.  It was like Seth had hit bedrock around season 4 of Family Guy and couldn't go any lower, so he found a jackhammer.

the Confederate flag symbolised the dukes of hazzard car General Lee

Regarding the ban on swastikas. As you may have noticed, I post quite a lot of aircraft images here, and not only here. Some of them are German. Some of them were flown in 1933-45. Always with their original insignia. Nobody ever complained.

My grandfather fought against Nazis - real Nazis with real swastikas. He didn't go to war to fight pixels or black squares or any other abstract figures invented to satisfy the hyperactive legislators. If we'll start to pixelize our past, our children and grandchildren won't be able to understand the evil nature of Nazism. So my use of (archive images with) swastika doesn't make me into Nazi, quite the opposite. "Know your enemy" - and to know him you have to see him.

It's not an attempt to censor the past. It's an attempt to sabotage things for the neo-nazis.

i believe it is an attempt to censor a past use of the symbol at the expense of all its valid users.the hiding of the swastika just falls into the plans of neo-nazis:it is a show of weakness.what would really piss them off would be all races and religions reclaiming it for public use.

I have noticed since being here that,there is some Nazi images,but as they are in the right place. Being on an aircraft,or on a WWII poster, then his image is fine with me. I am a member of a few other sites,which do ban such images,and they give good reason too. 

But sometimes that good reason,gets in the way of history,and how it should be told. Lord K, is right in what he says below. 



lord_k said:

Regarding the ban on swastikas. As you may have noticed, I post quite a lot of aircraft images here, and not only here. Some of them are German. Some of them were flown in 1933-45. Always with their original insignia. Nobody ever complained.

 So my use of (archive images with) swastika doesn't make me into Nazi, quite the opposite. "Know your enemy" - and to know him you have to see him.

Nonsense. The world is much bigger than only Germany, and of course there are very interesting Dieselpunk scenarios possible without mentioning the Nazis. You don't have to deny them, but you can just ignore them. Even in Germany between 1933 and 1945 many movies were made without mentioning the Nazis or politics at all. You can ask in the opposite: Don't you glorify the Nazis and humilate the victims, if you only make stories with Nazis?

Have you ever seen the movie "the Tunnel" (from 1933)? This film is a scheince fiction about a tunnel between Europe and America. The film was made as a french/german co-production, the film was not made by the Nazis. But the idea behind it (the honour of hard work, the movie's asthestics) looks very much like a fascist propaganda, even if not ment to be. (I don't think it is, I think it's just the stupid story...) If you make a film like that today, you should put Nazis in it, to make it antifascist. If you don't do so, everybody believes you are making Nazi propaganda.

On the other hand: "Things to Come" (1936) is about an endless war, started in 1939 (very good guess, BTW). They did not mention the Nazis (as it was not important for the story, it is about the future after endless wars, not about Germany), but this movie is pretty obvious antifasistic, even without Nazis.

So it always depends to the story.

I can only add that the Bundesarchiv, a respected German state institution, published scores of 1933-1945 images uncensored, with all Nazi symbols present. We can (and we do) use these images on their historical and educational value only.

I know using images as posts can be considered rude but I tought this could be a good example of pre-1945 Swastika use. Many probably already knew it.

Anyway I've seen a lot of non-swastikas around so neo-nazi have plenty of alternatives, from the Wolfsangel to the Schwarze sonne. I've even seen a mix between an horizontal Wolfsangel and a Christian cross...

And since we were writing about European laws, here in Italy you can display swastikas or fasci, as long as it is not to promote crimes. The thing you can't do is to rebuild, in any form, the National Fascist Party.

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