just a thought.....

could Diesel/Steam stories in which the nazis didnt exist,or never came to power,be classed as Holocaust Denial?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leviathan on January 14, 2012 at 9:03am

I know using images as posts can be considered rude but I tought this could be a good example of pre-1945 Swastika use. Many probably already knew it.

Anyway I've seen a lot of non-swastikas around so neo-nazi have plenty of alternatives, from the Wolfsangel to the Schwarze sonne. I've even seen a mix between an horizontal Wolfsangel and a Christian cross...

And since we were writing about European laws, here in Italy you can display swastikas or fasci, as long as it is not to promote crimes. The thing you can't do is to rebuild, in any form, the National Fascist Party.

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Permalink Reply by david bradley on January 15, 2012 at 8:28am

thanks Leviathan:another good example of legitimate use .

Leviathan said:

I know using images as posts can be considered rude but I tought this could be a good example of pre-1945 Swastika use. Many probably already knew it.

Anyway I've seen a lot of non-swastikas around so neo-nazi have plenty of alternatives, from the Wolfsangel to the Schwarze sonne. I've even seen a mix between an horizontal Wolfsangel and a Christian cross...

And since we were writing about European laws, here in Italy you can display swastikas or fasci, as long as it is not to promote crimes. The thing you can't do is to rebuild, in any form, the National Fascist Party.

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Permalink Reply by Philip Vandenberg on January 15, 2012 at 10:02am

Not sure about other European countries, but in Germany all those 'other' insignia like the wolsangel and schwarze sonne symbols are all illegal to display. Probably not for educational or historical reference, but it will cause trouble in other situations. And that doesn't only count for Neo-Nazi's. New Wave and other alternative 'bands' have had trouble with that too when displaying those, even though they didn't adhere to the Nazi ideology.

Leviathan said:

Anyway I've seen a lot of non-swastikas around so neo-nazi have plenty of alternatives, from the Wolfsangel to the Schwarze sonne. I've even seen a mix between an horizontal Wolfsangel and a Christian cross...

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Permalink Reply by Ed Lacy on April 1, 2012 at 12:12am

I suppose much would depend on what happened instead or why it happened. I don't think imagining an alternate stream in which there were no NAZIs or they didn't come to power constitutes holocaust denial, per se. There could be problems with this depending on how it is developed, but I don't think the problem is inherent in such alternate scenarios. Such stories, after all, would not be of this world. I can't see how a world in which there were never any NAZIs would be de facto a bad thing. What would have been done with all of the creative energy spent on WWII if it had been diverted to other possibilities? What would have happened with Japan? What would have happened to European colonialism? To the Soviet Union? There are some tantalizing, or horrible, possible alternatives for all of these variables.

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Permalink Reply by Павел Скрыльников on April 1, 2012 at 2:57am

Oh, everything is possible! How about a steampunk world featuring, for example, Nietzsche as a leader of a powerful fascist (it is no need for it even to be nationalist) state? Or a clockpunk story set in Renaissance with pagan Italy united by duce Machiavelli?

Tome Wilson said:

Any dieselpunk story would automatically be classified as fiction by default, and Nazis weren't even around in Victorian times, so they wouldn't fit into the Steampunk paradigm.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Seibel on April 3, 2012 at 4:07pm

david bradley said:

all good points,and well argued.thank you.however a point has been raised which needs comment:the ban on swastikas.i am not going to go through the history of this ancient human symbol as its easy to find,but i will argue that the ban is wrong and demonizes a beautiful symbol(see the Hindu examples).the Hebrews also valued it enough to decorate their ancient synagogues with,so why not publicise it and reclaim it for humanity.

David I agree with your point completely..my mom's a Buddhist (Jodo Shinshu) & the swastika is a traditional part of their culture. By banning it's use it concedes power to those misuse it for hate. Instead those governments should strive to educate their populaces of the truth of the Swastika. Bring Hindus , Buddhist & other non-European peoples who's cultures the Swastika are possitive symbols. Thus freeing it of taint , forcing Neo-Nazis to create a new symbol for their hateful creed.