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Of late I've been finding the Post-WWII (Early Atomic Era) period more than a little fascinating, so this news item really doesn't surprise me very much. (There was a HECK OF A LOT of stuff going on then that the ~ average folks ~ never heard about. Nor even imagined! Much of it, Stranger Than Fiction!) But I was wondering if anybody else here tracked this story??? =

Spiegel Online - Nazi Veterans Created Illegal Army

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/wehrmacht-veterans-crea... 

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Interesting.  Thanks for posting about this Dan.

You're more than welcome, Brendan. 

I've been finding a LOT of rather ~ Interesting ~ items from this rather small sliver of Pre-ICBM timeline. I hesitate to post them here as I don't want to "Nuke" away the Diesel fumes. :-)  But this seemed to float rather well within the time-streams.

 

Brendan HollyKing Leber said:

Interesting.  Thanks for posting about this Dan.

I tend to agree with you, Captain. Often "Volunteers" /"Turncoats" tend to be even more fanatical in their dedication to a cause then the original organizers. A point often exploited by the leaders of many organizations. Both Good and Bad. (BTW - You might find it equally disturbing to find out just how many ardent Communists were deeply embedded within the ranks of the Allied governments during the war. As well as how strong an influence they had not only on the war, but on the spread and strengthening of Communism during and after.)    

However, the key item in this article that attracted my attention (and admiration) was that these "defeated" soldiers were willing to come together and risk So Very Much, not in an attempt to harass and throw off their conquers, nor to build a "Fourth Reich", but in an attempt to protect their nation and people from the very real threat of a hostile Soviet invasion. An invasion that many of the Allied Nations saw looming and feared at the time as well. An invasion that the Allies could have actually done little to prevent if "Uncle Joe" should have decided to continue with a military expansion. To me, those actions by these German soldiers mark them as TRUE PATRIOTS in my book.   



Captain said:

I'd be curious to read more, Dan.  Do you have a blog where you post about this?  Would you be willing to PM me more links and details?

Thanks! B


Dan G. said:

You're more than welcome, Brendan. 

I've been finding a LOT of rather ~ Interesting ~ items from this rather small sliver of Pre-ICBM timeline. I hesitate to post them here as I don't want to "Nuke" away the Diesel fumes. :-)  But this seemed to float rather well within the time-streams.

When I was stationed in Germany I tried to meet as many veterans as possible since I am a bit of a military history fan.  Curiously every German veteran that I met or any of my friends met fought on the Eastern front.  Even my neighbor, Kurt-Karl, who was a WW I veteran fought the Russians and was held in a Russian POW camp.  Considering where I was stationed I would have loved to have cornered some folks who remembered the airfield operations during WW II. 

I never caught wind of an illegal army/militia while I lived in Germany but I cannot say that I am terribly surprised to hear about one. 

Sorry Brendan, no blog. Very little in the way of real Comp time for such an undertaking. I've just found myself rather intrigued with this sliver of time. Especially the military technology, politics, and the whole ~ What If ~ military aspect. I keep stumbling over all sorts of interesting historical tid-bits that really get me thinking that the Real World might have been even stranger than any sort of Alternative History or Mil-Sci-Fi twists I could hope to come up with or see in print.

Anyhow, I have been collecting links and dumping them into my (antiquated?) :-)  Sci-Fi Armor Yahoo Group's Links page under ~ Atomic Age Sci & Sci-Fi ~ for lack of anyplace better. You (and anyone else interested) are always more than welcome to pop in, explore, and chat. 

Brendan HollyKing Leber said:

I'd be curious to read more, Dan.  Do you have a blog where you post about this?  Would you be willing to PM me more links and details?

Thanks! B

That is interesting, Captain. I have heard though that it was rather popular for many German veterans to claim that they only fought the Russians rather than that they might have actually fought and killed Allied troops. It all seems rather sad and foolish to me, but I suppose one can understand some of the reasoning behind it. However, it would be rather interesting to find out if and why there really are more Eastern Front survivors vs Western or North Africa campaigners. 

Captain said:

When I was stationed in Germany I tried to meet as many veterans as possible since I am a bit of a military history fan.  Curiously every German veteran that I met or any of my friends met fought on the Eastern front.  Even my neighbor, Kurt-Karl, who was a WW I veteran fought the Russians and was held in a Russian POW camp.  Considering where I was stationed I would have loved to have cornered some folks who remembered the airfield operations during WW II. 

I never caught wind of an illegal army/militia while I lived in Germany but I cannot say that I am terribly surprised to hear about one. 

Technically the Eastern Front was not only a larger military operation than the Western Front but the largest in history:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_%28World_War_II%29  I have had a few history discussions with ex-Soviet/Soviet Block folks (there is an impressive growing reenactment community there that started with US reenacting resources then evolved a little more) the WW II history that most of them were taught in school is somewhat different than what we learned.  One take that I have heard repeatedly was that Hitler was creation of the capitalist/illuminati to destroy communism  but he got out of control and that the western power reluctantly had to step in and check him.  Their "proof" of this and the earlier incarnation of WW I is the tremendously greater losses that they suffered.  I find it hard to argue with that kind of body count and then there is the CIA's embarrassing habit of creating puppet psychos to attack other countries including the USSR a few times.  Please don't take me for anti-American at all but I do appreciate a well reasoned argument when I hear one.  BTW - I am cautiously optimistic about the "2nd chance" we are getting to become friends with Russians.  I spent a lot of my life learning to kill them but I would rather just hang out, hit them in the head, and drink with them later.  

This brings me back to Germans when I lived there c. 1990.  They were ashamed to portray much of their impressive history.  If they won a soccer game some other countries would start yelling "Nazi!"  Forget WW II and WW I reenacting not being PC but there were more American and Swedish Landsknechts then Germans.  I hated seeing people afraid to show pride in their own heritage.    My base was were the much feared Me-262s all launched from (one of my favorite planes even before living there).  I learned a lot living in Germany but I wish that a lot more Europeans had a chance to live in the US, especially small town USA.  I think that it would be at least as eye opening for them. 

I better return this soapbox now.  ;-) 



Dan G. said:

That is interesting, Captain. I have heard though that it was rather popular for many German veterans to claim that they only fought the Russians rather than that they might have actually fought and killed Allied troops. It all seems rather sad and foolish to me, but I suppose one can understand some of the reasoning behind it. However, it would be rather interesting to find out if and why there really are more Eastern Front survivors vs Western or North Africa campaigners. 

Captain said:

When I was stationed in Germany I tried to meet as many veterans as possible since I am a bit of a military history fan.  Curiously every German veteran that I met or any of my friends met fought on the Eastern front.  Even my neighbor, Kurt-Karl, who was a WW I veteran fought the Russians and was held in a Russian POW camp.  Considering where I was stationed I would have loved to have cornered some folks who remembered the airfield operations during WW II. 

I never caught wind of an illegal army/militia while I lived in Germany but I cannot say that I am terribly surprised to hear about one. 

Captain, it seems to me that a good bit of that admittedly heavy Russian body count can also be attributed to their tactical use of Commissars pushing troops into battle were only one in three was actually armed with a weapon. When he dropped the next was expected to pick up the piece and carry on the fight. Or catch a bullet from the rear. If your tactics are to use your troops as cannon fodder, your butcher's bill can only be high. . . . I gotta wonder if they were taught that bit in school?

I think that it is kinda hard to argue Who had the greater crazy running their country. Hitler or Stalin? It seems to me it was an unavoidable collision on that particular front. There were certainly others brewing up around the world at that time as well. The actual causes of the confrontations were too multitudinous to simplify. 

It sure ain't only the CIA (which didn't exist until after WWII) that loved to play with Puppet Governments. All of The Powers have played that game through all of time, and still do. Even between the "Friendly" powers themselves. Such is the world we live in. Hard for anyone to point fingers when the rest of your fingers point back to you.

It worries me for many years now that Germany has tried to shovel so much of its history (and part of my own heritage) beneath the PC carpet. I worry that so much that is truly honorable and vital will be lost forever to future generations just to let ~ somebody ~ "Feel Good". 

RE. BTW - I too was raised (as a Child of the Atom Era) to hate, fear and combat (with my service being in the Pacific) The Red Menace, but would much prefer to "share a beer" as well. . . . Preferably an ICE COLD American style one! LOL

And, You're Right, the Me-262 is ONE HOT RIDE!!! :-) 

I cannot argue that the CIA was not the first puppeteers even in the US.  It would be nice to someday outgrow the need for this sort of practice.  Someday.



Dan G. said:

Captain, it seems to me that a good bit of that admittedly heavy Russian body count can also be attributed to their tactical use of Commissars pushing troops into battle were only one in three was actually armed with a weapon. When he dropped the next was expected to pick up the piece and carry on the fight. Or catch a bullet from the rear. If your tactics are to use your troops as cannon fodder, your butcher's bill can only be high. . . . I gotta wonder if they were taught that bit in school?

I think that it is kinda hard to argue Who had the greater crazy running their country. Hitler or Stalin? It seems to me it was an unavoidable collision on that particular front. There were certainly others brewing up around the world at that time as well. The actual causes of the confrontations were too multitudinous to simplify. 

It sure ain't only the CIA (which didn't exist until after WWII) that loved to play with Puppet Governments. All of The Powers have played that game through all of time, and still do. Even between the "Friendly" powers themselves. Such is the world we live in. Hard for anyone to point fingers when the rest of your fingers point back to you.

It worries me for many years now that Germany has tried to shovel so much of its history (and part of my own heritage) beneath the PC carpet. I worry that so much that is truly honorable and vital will be lost forever to future generations just to let ~ somebody ~ "Feel Good".   -Well said. 

RE. BTW - I too was raised (as a Child of the Atom Era) to hate, fear and combat (with my service being in the Pacific) The Red Menace, but would much prefer to "share a beer" as well. . . . Preferably an ICE COLD American style one! LOL

And, You're Right, the Me-262 is ONE HOT RIDE!!! :-) 

Agreed, Captain, . . . But then, what we do with all of those unemployed politicians??? LOL

Captain said:

I cannot argue that the CIA was not the first puppeteers even in the US.  It would be nice to someday outgrow the need for this sort of practice.  Someday.

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