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The second part of my Operation Sea Lion blog is now available here ...

http://ian-hathaway.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-impossibility-of-sea...

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Well done, sir. Excellent post.

I can not help but get the impression that the noted AH authoritarian and his followers might be equally under the delusion that the British military might alone would have been more than sufficient to defeat all of Hitler's German forces on ALL fronts. As you so well pointed out, many of his declarations simply do not hold water. There are certainly a number of others that are equally as suspect. I think that it is pretty well accepted as fact that if it wasn't for the US finally being pushed into this conflict at the time that it was, things wouldn't have been so jolly in ol' London town. As with all of history, and military history in particular, too many things hing upon the turning of a single event. What works on paper, most certainly does note always hold in reality. As an obvious fan of AH Mr.Authoritarian should be more than aware of that fact. Heck, THAT'S what makes ALTERNATE history so darn interesting in the fist place!!! 

Don't let the Petty Feudal Lords and their minions put you off Ian. Stick by your guns! And if you can back your play with facts, . . . so much the better! You did a Darn Good Job!

 

Give 'em hell, Ian. As the "guy who first alerted you to AH.com" I'm curious to see someone systematically challange the accepted Canon there. I like AH.com (Ian, Dan and others, don't let the few self-rightous elites sour you to what is otherwise a hell of a great message board), but the dogmaticism on some areas (including the "unmentionable sea mammal") always turned me off. I used to frequent the site (as "Geekhis Khan") and even won multiple "Turtledove" awards for my timelines before fatherhood and a new job killed my time towards those (these included, ironically, a satirical spoof TL on Sealion with magic demonic sea lions that was as much a stealth satire on the prevalent attitudes of the site itself). Keep 'em coming, Ian!

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=262133

I keep providing them with new information but they always seem to go very quiet on me :P

Ian,

Ya can lead a horse to water . . . What more can ya say???

I LOVE Cap'n Tony's idea! (LOL) 

I will always stick to ~ MY ~ notion that ANYTHING is possible. . . . Even "magic demonic sea lions"! (LOL)

Ian Hathaway said:

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=262133

I keep providing them with new information but they always seem to go very quiet on me :P

Thanks, Dan.  I'll post a link to "Operation Teufelseelowe - a Truly ASB Sea Mammal" when I get home (work blocks AH.com).  Be warned, it is rather silly and perhaps a wee bit anachronistic here and there.

Dan G. said:

Ian,

Ya can lead a horse to water . . . What more can ya say???

I LOVE Cap'n Tony's idea! (LOL) 

I will always stick to ~ MY ~ notion that ANYTHING is possible. . . . Even "magic demonic sea lions"! (LOL)

Ian Hathaway said:

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=262133

I keep providing them with new information but they always seem to go very quiet on me :P

As requested: Operation Teufelseelowe.  Don't say you weren't warned...

Thanks Cap'n. I'll have to wait a bit to read it. I'm only in the Mod's new member queue. =  I've heard the same remarks regarding Ah.com as Ian made, and have avoided it. Up until today. Go Figure. Like I said, "ANYTHING is possible." Even MY history can be ~ Altered ~!  LOL 

Cap'n Tony said:

As requested: Operation Teufelseelowe.  Don't say you weren't warned...

The  reasons  Sea  Lion  would have failed:

A. Germany had no aircraft carriers. British  carrier strikes would have wrecked the German surface fleet.

B. Germany had no landing craft. Towed barges would have been easy pickings for coastal artillery, aircraft, torpedo  boats, and shore-based tanks.

C. Even if  they  had  landed, British cops were  to  be  armed in that contingency and  they would have  shot at  the Germans, too.

D. Millions  of  American  citizens sent  guns and binoculars to Britain, separate from  lend lease. This went to arm to British  civilians of  the  Home guard.  Tragically, the traitors  of the Labor party government  refused  to  return  these weapons  most  of  which were  dumped  in the North Sea.

E. The  Chinook and  Cobra helicopter[s] were not yet invented. No air transport and air support capabilities.

F.  Politically, the failure to sign a non-aggression  pact with Washington cast  the shadow  of  potential American intervention in the event Britain was  invaded.

See my response below ... I have now been studying this subject quite hard since I first posted all those months ago as the Alternate History crowd are a hard bunch to please and you really need to know your stuff before they even stop laughing at you long enough to listen ...

Mark R. Holcomb said:

The  reasons  Sea  Lion  would have failed:

A. Germany had no aircraft carriers. British  carrier strikes would have wrecked the German surface fleet.

The aircraft carrier issue is not important, the Royal Navy had a single aircraft carrier available in or near home waters, the HMS Furious if memory serves me correctly, which carried less than 40 aircraft.  These planes would not have stood up against German frontline aircraft as they were intended to hit naval targets.  The Furious was actually patrolling in the North Sea during the intended invasion period guarding against incursions by the German surface fleet based in Norway and was never intended to interfere with the landings.  The rest of the Royal Navy however was a big issue for the Germans and was the ultimate reason they never launched.  Three battleships, eleven or more cruisers and a great number of destroyers were stationed around the coast of Britain and the only way to have got rid of the would have been as a result of the air attacks that would have followed the Battle of Britain.

B. Germany had no landing craft. Towed barges would have been easy pickings for coastal artillery, aircraft, torpedo  boats, and shore-based tanks.

The Germans had over 1700 converted barges that could each carry 250 tons.  The first wave of barges used to carry 80,000 troops and 600 tanks were mainly powered as part of the conversion process.  The followup waves may though have been restricted.  In advance of the barges there was to be an assault wave of 10,000 troops carried in smaller boats such as motor launches to land directly on the beaches, overwhelm the almost none existent defences and ensure the following barges had a pretty easy time of it.

C. Even if  they  had  landed, British cops were  to  be  armed in that contingency and  they would have  shot at  the Germans, too.

The British strategy was not to meet them on the beaches as Churchill so famously stated but provide a broad carpet of defence.  How effective the defence would have been thankfully was never put to the test as the general opinion is that even if the entire population of Britain was armed they would be facing seasoned troops who had been involved in 3 or 4 campaigns already.

D. Millions  of  American  citizens sent  guns and binoculars to Britain, separate from  lend lease. This went to arm to British  civilians of  the  Home guard.  Tragically, the traitors  of the Labor party government  refused  to  return  these weapons  most  of  which were  dumped  in the North Sea.

See above answer.

E. The  Chinook and  Cobra helicopter[s] were not yet invented. No air transport and air support capabilities.

The germans had a very large contingent of air portable troops and would have used them to secure locations inland to support the landings.  My figures will be a little out here as I am dragging them from my memory but I believe there were somewhere in the region of 15 - 18,000 airborne troops who really were highly trained to survive behind enemy lines.  To take them in they had gliders and the Ju52 transport aircraft.  They even had artillary available in the form of recoiless rifles which were much lighter than regular artillary and could have been easy brought to the battlefield by air, it would have been the first time they had been used in combat and were still unknown outside Germany.

F.  Politically, the failure to sign a non-aggression  pact with Washington cast  the shadow  of  potential American intervention in the event Britain was  invaded.

Now this I have little knowledge of ...

Fascinating conversation by both Mark and Ian.

The Fallschirmjager (sp?) are the airborne troops you ar talking about. Some of the finest troops of the 20th century. There are some really good books available about them....Diving Eagles is one that comes to mind. British civilians would have stood no chance against them IMO.


Ian Hathaway said:

See my response below ... I have now been studying this subject quite hard since I first posted all those months ago as the Alternate History crowd are a hard bunch to please and you really need to know your stuff before they even stop laughing at you long enough to listen ...

Mark R. Holcomb said:

The  reasons  Sea  Lion  would have failed:

A. Germany had no aircraft carriers. British  carrier strikes would have wrecked the German surface fleet.

The aircraft carrier issue is not important, the Royal Navy had a single aircraft carrier available in or near home waters, the HMS Furious if memory serves me correctly, which carried less than 40 aircraft.  These planes would not have stood up against German frontline aircraft as they were intended to hit naval targets.  The Furious was actually patrolling in the North Sea during the intended invasion period guarding against incursions by the German surface fleet based in Norway and was never intended to interfere with the landings.  The rest of the Royal Navy however was a big issue for the Germans and was the ultimate reason they never launched.  Three battleships, eleven or more cruisers and a great number of destroyers were stationed around the coast of Britain and the only way to have got rid of the would have been as a result of the air attacks that would have followed the Battle of Britain.

B. Germany had no landing craft. Towed barges would have been easy pickings for coastal artillery, aircraft, torpedo  boats, and shore-based tanks.

The Germans had over 1700 converted barges that could each carry 250 tons.  The first wave of barges used to carry 80,000 troops and 600 tanks were mainly powered as part of the conversion process.  The followup waves may though have been restricted.  In advance of the barges there was to be an assault wave of 10,000 troops carried in smaller boats such as motor launches to land directly on the beaches, overwhelm the almost none existent defences and ensure the following barges had a pretty easy time of it.

C. Even if  they  had  landed, British cops were  to  be  armed in that contingency and  they would have  shot at  the Germans, too.

The British strategy was not to meet them on the beaches as Churchill so famously stated but provide a broad carpet of defence.  How effective the defence would have been thankfully was never put to the test as the general opinion is that even if the entire population of Britain was armed they would be facing seasoned troops who had been involved in 3 or 4 campaigns already.

D. Millions  of  American  citizens sent  guns and binoculars to Britain, separate from  lend lease. This went to arm to British  civilians of  the  Home guard.  Tragically, the traitors  of the Labor party government  refused  to  return  these weapons  most  of  which were  dumped  in the North Sea.

See above answer.

E. The  Chinook and  Cobra helicopter[s] were not yet invented. No air transport and air support capabilities.

The germans had a very large contingent of air portable troops and would have used them to secure locations inland to support the landings.  My figures will be a little out here as I am dragging them from my memory but I believe there were somewhere in the region of 15 - 18,000 airborne troops who really were highly trained to survive behind enemy lines.  To take them in they had gliders and the Ju52 transport aircraft.  They even had artillary available in the form of recoiless rifles which were much lighter than regular artillary and could have been easy brought to the battlefield by air, it would have been the first time they had been used in combat and were still unknown outside Germany.

F.  Politically, the failure to sign a non-aggression  pact with Washington cast  the shadow  of  potential American intervention in the event Britain was  invaded.

Now this I have little knowledge of ...

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