Dieselpunk + Steampunk Culture
What is "Dieselpunk" to you?
The subject keeps coming up as to what "Dieselpunk" means, be it a genre, a subculture, an aestetic, a lifestyle, etc....
This keeps getting discussed in every other topic to the point of derailing discussions, for which I admit my own guilt as much as anyone. it seems worth having a topic just to discuss this centrally important issue. As Larry mentioned in another thread, this is a big tent with room for interpretations, but it's probably worthwhile to keep an open dialog just to better acquaint ourselves and our passions.
Just to get the ball rolling, here's a few of the interpretations I've gleaned from our members:
Dieselpunk is a...
Genre: it is an interpretation of SF/cyberpunk fiction and art through a Diesel Age lens. You read books by Robert Jackson Benett and have a Stefan image on your desktop.
Cosplay: it's a chance to dress up in wild styles inspired by the Diesel Age. You dress in fedoras or peaked caps for parties or cons.
Fandom: as the two above and specifically where they intersect. You dress as Diesel Fett for Gencon.
Aestetic/Look: it's placing a Diesel Era look upon today's things, be it retro clothing, streamline/deco design, jazz/swing-influenced music, etc. Perhaps openly influenced by Punk Punk (tats, piercings, odd hair), perhaps not.
DIY: as above, but you make it yourself. You've customized your iPod to look like a Ronson Lighter.
Culture/Counterculture: it is a set of shared values and styles, self-defining, nostalgic or ironic, that go against the mainstream grain and seek to ellicit change or at least stand out. You wear your fedora in rebellion against the souless, corporate mainstream social order. Pissing off your parents is optional.
Lifestyle: as above, but you're dressing the part every day rather than just for meetups/cons/nights out. You wear your fedora to the office, insist on vintage cocktails at work parties, and hum Ellington or Wolfgang Parker as you strut down the street.
All/Some/None of the Above: what it says on the tin, some combination of the above elements or something else entirely.
So, what's it to ya', Pops? What's your take?
Tags: Dieselpunk, culture, debate, philosophy
Views: 1321
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Atterton on -
It really goes for any story that you can rarely decide it is one specific genre and only that. Things don't come in neat little boxes.
For those who see some link between dieselpunk and cyberpunk, I would also just mention that The Rocketeer was published in 1982 whereas the short story Cyberpunk was published in 1983.
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Permalink Reply by O. G. Vodoun on -
Again, that inherently implies that everything is Dieselpunk to some degree. And it's what allows for the overinflation of the "tent". Where wearing a fedora to the office counts as Dieselpunk rather than simply being vintage because one can truthfully say it includes one small element that reflects Dieselpunk aesthetics. It's a very regretsy vision - where simply adding gears makes anything Steampunk.
@lord_k
Right. This community seems to be using any connection to "The Diesel Era" to count as Dieselpunk. Big Bad Voodoo Daddy isn't natural-born Dieselpunk for the same reasons Superman is not; but they've been "adopted" in similar fashion. Zoot suits are an important aspect of "The Diesel Era", but simply wearing a zoot suit is not Dieselpunk just as simply wearing Neo-Victorian fashion is not Steampunk. Neo-Victorian is not synonymous with Steampunk.
Of course, if you get enough followers, you can push anything through. Dieselpunk can become synonymous with Neo-Swing. Dieselpunk can become simply anything inspired by "The Diesel Era" with no ties whatsoever to science fiction or diesel-powered technology beyond being reminiscent of something from the span of years so designated.
It will be interesting to watch how that develops.
Larry said:I understood Tome to be saying that Dieselpunk should be thought of as a characteristic that can be found in various degrees within something as opposed to labeling a thing as either being Dieselpunk or not. A good comparison might be interior design which has Asian or Traditional styles of design as opposed to saying the room is or is not Asian or Traditional. A room may incorporate Asian or Traditional elements but one would not say the room itself was either
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Permalink Reply by lord_k on -
In January, I published a short text somehow related to the problem. All the characters, from A. to J., are there just to show that Dieselpunk is a multi-faceted but by no means an all-encompassing movement. Someone wearing a fedora feels at home with our crowd. And some other person, even more elaborately dressed, won't tolerate any ~punk connection. There are people who came here incidentally - some will leave and some will find their place and stay. And others, who will be most happy to join us but haven't heard about our network.
Speaking of "retro" - believe me, I'm subscribed to the Fedora Lounge. Lively atmosphere, nice people, tons of amazing stuff every day. But it's not my pint of bitter. Here @ Dieselpunks there's much more than "retro". Hope one day I'll find proper words to describe the difference.
O. G. Vodoun said:@lord_k
Right. This community seems to be using any connection to "The Diesel Era" to count as Dieselpunk. Big Bad Voodoo Daddy isn't natural-born Dieselpunk for the same reasons Superman is not; but they've been "adopted" in similar fashion. Zoot suits are an important aspect of "The Diesel Era", but simply wearing a zoot suit is not Dieselpunk just as simply wearing Neo-Victorian fashion is not Steampunk. Neo-Victorian is not synonymous with Steampunk.
Of course, if you get enough followers, you can push anything through. Dieselpunk can become synonymous with Neo-Swing. Dieselpunk can become simply anything inspired by "The Diesel Era" with no ties whatsoever to science fiction or diesel-powered technology beyond being reminiscent of something from the span of years so designated.
It will be interesting to watch how that develops.
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Permalink Reply by John Pyka on -
But it is all of the above. DP is a different thing to me than it is OG. For me, The aesthetics of the Diesel era is my base line. I add modern and futuristic sci-fi and fantasy conventions and it is a part and focus of everyday life.
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Permalink Reply by Atterton on
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I'd say the question was meant more as "What would you say dieselpunk is?" than "What does dieselpunk mean to you?". Medieval reenacment might mean a lot to me, but it's still my hobby, not my lifestyle or anything of the sort. Similarly in Sweden there is a subculture called Raggare. They drive 1950s cars, dress like the 1950s and listen to music from back then. Yet it's not a genre and they have nothing to do with what some have called Atompunk, ie retrofuturism set in the 1950s.
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Permalink Reply by O. G. Vodoun on
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Right. But if there is no "futurism" rather than mere contemporary - it's not Dieselpunk.
There's nothing Dieselpunk about Smooth Criminal - it's just retro. Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation is closer to Dieselpunk aesthetics.
That scene from Psych's Autopsy Turvy episode is not Dieselpunk. The people who live that lifestyle as depicted in the bar are not indicative of Dieselpunk. To reflect Dieselpunk, they would also have to display futuristic diesel-powered tech.
From what I understand of Raggare, that's not Dieselpunk, even if they also like to attend sci-fi comventions.
Raggare who add sci-fi elements to the designs of their cars and clothing would be Dieselpunk - especially if those sci-fi elements are diesel-powered.
Whether they also like to attend sci-fi conventions in vintage clothing from the Jazz Age, doesn't really add anything.
Anyone can be a Dieselpunk fan and not reflect that in their style of dress.
Nothing Dieselpunk about John Carter from Mars.
It's not even a product of "The Diesel Era".
I suppose it would have been the "Barbarianpunk" of its day.
But, there's nothing diesel-powered about any of the tech: radium guns, solar-powered tech for the futurism and swords for the retro.
Star Wars is inspired by Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers -Space Operas written in the Jazz Age- but, there's nothing diesel about any of that. Star Wars is much more Cyberpunk than it is Dieselpunk, but it's not really even Cyberpunk.
"Anything inspired by 'The Diesel Era'" or even "Anything inspired by the Diesel Era mixed with today" is like adding a couple of gears to a Calvin Klein suit and calling that Steampunk.
It's not simply "Does that reflect Diesel-Era inspiration?" but "Does that evoke a sense of an alternate timeline that uses diesel-powered futuristic tech?"
A contemporary spin on Bonnie and Clyde isn't Dieselpunk - unless that contemporary spin is specifically indicative of Punk aesthetics, like tattoos, piercings and hairstyles.
Again, ideally, Dieselpunk should be reflective of Punk, futuristic tech and "The Diesel Era". 2 out of 3 works.
1 out of 3 isn't Dieselpunk.
I've lived the Neo-Swing lifestyle - and I'm also interested in sci-fi - I'm also a gadget guy.
But, dressing in a zoot while dancing at the Derby isn't Dieselpunk. Dressing in a zoot suit while attending a sci-fi convention isn't Dieselpunk, either.
My home tends to be styled as Neo-Edwardian, but it's not quite Steampunk.
My current fashion tends to be Neo-Edwardian as well. I can strap on goggles and a side-arm when I want to be Steampunk.
@Atterton
I think the question is more about exploring how we define Dieselpunk rather than isn't meaningful/valuable/rewarding.
To me, it's important to distinguish the niche as a unique sub-genre of sci-fi, as opposed to diluting the concept by including everything from Space Opera and Planetary Romance to Neo-Swing to simply wearing a fedora to the office.
I believe, when determining whether something is reflective of Dieselpunk, it's impertaive to evaluate the Punk and futuristic sci-fi elements. Inspired by "The Diesel Era" is not enough to qualify as Dieselpunk - that's just one leg that forms the base.
Johnny Dellarocca said:But it is all of the above. DP is a different thing to me than it is OG. For me, The aesthetics of the Diesel era is my base line. I add modern and futuristic sci-fi and fantasy conventions and it is a part and focus of everyday life.
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Permalink Reply by John Pyka on
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OG,
You've obviously never seen the full Smooth Criminal short film or you would have a different opinion. As for my lack of the sci-fi tech and what not in my examples, you seem to forget about the Comic Bookshelf.
It seems that you have a narrow definition of what Dieselpunk is. From what I am reading from you, nothing is Dieselpunk. And don't even point to Mad Max, cause that ain't it.
You keep shooting down my examples, but do not present any of your own clear examples. Show us all what you think this thing called Dieselpunk is.
Dieselpunk can best be defined as a subculture and a genre of art blending the aesthetics of the 1920s through the early 1950s with today. The goal of dieselpunk is to create something unexpected and new by merging the zeitgeist of the past with today’s technology and attitude.
That is what Dieselpunk is to me, and it is pretty broad.
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Permalink Reply by John Pyka on
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And the definition from this very site:
Dieselpunk is a style that blends the art and culture of the 1920s - 1950s with today.
The era we look to for inspiration was defined by movement and revolution: jazz, modern art, world wars, streamlined technology, and an evolution from stilted, Victorian-era hypocrisy. Our goal is to shape a better future for ourselves by merging the zeitgeist of the past with today's technology and attitudes.
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Permalink Reply by Larry on -
Whoa, folks. I say we chill this out some.
O.G., it appears from your postings that you would define Dieselpunk as an "alternate timeline that uses diesel-powered futuristic tech". Correct me if I'm wrong on my understanding.
If I'm correct and that is the total of Dieselpunk for you and all else is not then more power to you. However, as Johnny has pointed out, along with the various materials by the pioneers of Dieselpunk, Dieselpunk is a highly varied genre that means different things to different people.
Which is why Cap'n was right on target for naming this thread "What is 'Dieselpunk' to you?" The key part of that title is "to you."
PS Johnny, there are some in the Dieselpunk community that would include Mad Max in the Dieselpunk. In fact, some of those are pioneers in the genre. On that I would recommend the landmark article "Discovering Dieselpunk" by two of the pioneers of Dieselpunk Nick Ottens and Mr. Piecraft in issue 1 of the Gatehouse Gazette. While Mad Max doesn't fit my vision of Dieselpunk it has been put out there by some people that had a major influence in the creation of the genre.
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Permalink Reply by John Pyka on
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And by "folks" Larry means me. :)
I do take this passionately and personally. To me Diesel is NOT. A genre it is the way I choose to live. It is who I AM.
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Permalink Reply by Tome Wilson on -
@OG Vodoun
At first, I thought you were simply playing devil's advocate, which I can appreciate. It brings a smile to my inner dadaist when someone sneaks into a gallery and whispers "it's pretty, yes, but is it art?"
Upon reflection, it seems as though you have a very narrow criteria for defining what is "dieselpunk." The problem you're running into is the same one art critics have run into for years. Humans create art and that art expresses something personal. Since the message will never be exactly the same for each piece, categorizing art and defining an aesthetic cannot be a simple "yes/no" process. Instead, it's an agreement between the artist's intention and the consensus of the masses.
This invalidates your example about the Calvin Klein suit, because you're still thinking in orthodox black and white and not giving any respect to the artist's intention for "just gluing gears onto the suit." Of course, that suit wouldn't be an over-the-top 100% on-the-nose example of steampunk cosplay, but it does begin to incorporate a piece of the steampunk aesthetic into the design. "Is it steampunk/dieselpunk?" isn't the right question when it comes to things like this.
Instead, look at it this way:
- How much is the steampunk/dieselpunk aesthetic incorporated into the piece? Is it a primary piece of the aesthetic, or is it simply decoration?
- Did the artist intend to create a piece of steampunk/dieselpunk art?
- If #2 is yes, does the educated viewer understand the work to be steampunk/dieselpunk?
If the audience understands the general "feel" of the aesthetic, then they avoid the pitfalls of classifying the art based on a set of artificial tropes. You see, tropes are commonly collected aftera collection of art is analyzed, and usually only when the primary track of artists is done creating work in a particular style. To try and classify an art style into tropes/stereotypes while it is still evolving creates artificial boundaries. These boundaries foster poor imitations, limits any further potential growth, and creates neglect/disdain for splinter styles and offshoots.
On another subject, you're also confusing the years old argument of "steampunk vs punkpunk" with dieselpunk. Dieselpunk isn't cyberpunk 40 years earlier, or even steampunk 20 years later. The only thing it has in common with those genres is the nomenclature, which we (we being the group you're talking to) didn't create in the first place.
The "diesel" in dieselpunk refers to the biggest source of technological progress at the time. This makes it easy to define the time period we like, and I'm sure even Pollak would agree what we've built here is a lot different than his original vision of a post-steampunk fantasy genre. Plus, it certainly beats having to put "Post WWI to a little after WWI -punk" on my business cards. The point being, not all technology in dieselpunk art runs on diesel fuel, and the primary aesthetic of dieselpunk art may not even relate to the technology of the time period at all. It's about bringing the spirit of that era into the future. Technology and futurism may be a part of it, but the door is still open for other pieces of that zeitgeist to make their way to our century as well.
You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I invite you to keep an open mind towards the subject, and in turn you'll see a lot more growth and a lot more choices bloom around you.
© 2013 Created by Tome Wilson.
