Dieselpunk + Steampunk Culture
What Type of Dieselpunk Are You?
Several of the discussions here reminded me of this article at The Gatehouse,"The Two Flavors of Dieselpunk." In an excerpt from the article:
Elaborating upon the observations of The Flying Fortress about the genre, we have established two kinds of dieselpunk, differing in setting, style and influence. The “Ottensian,” of which Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004) is representative, is typically set in a 1930s that was never bothered by a Great Depression and is therefore more of a continuation of the Roaring Twenties; its optimism and excitement only strengthened by further progress. This buoyant and most pervasive of “Ottensian” dieselpunk shares its era with more film noir-styled, hard-boiled detective stories such as The Shadow (1994) and The Big O, which depict the negative effects of the era’s laissez-faire attitude: the rise of totalitarianism, technocratic perception, and the “grit and oil [and] dust and mud”5 of pollution.
On the other side of World War II we find the “Piecraftian” dieselpunk, shaped by an alternate outcome of the war: often Axis victory but sometimes a three-way Cold War reminiscent of Nineteen-Eighty-Four. Either way, the war is typically depicted as having been prolonged with advanced technologies based upon real-world Nazi experiments with rocketry, jet aircraft, and eugenics and the occult. Sometimes the “Piecraftian” is set during the later stages of the war, as is the case with video games like Return to Castle Wolfenstein (2001) and War Front: Turning Point (2007). Often, however, it is characterized by dystopia and nuclear paranoia, and the development of evermore agressive technologies of war and the conquest of space by Nazi-Germany—in Philip K. Dick’s The Man in the High Castle (1962) and Energia Productions’s Iron Sky (2008).
Finally, the darker side of the “Piecraftian” is truly hopeless, for in the post-apocalyptic environments of Mad Max (1979), Radioactive Dreams (1985), Yukito Kishiro’s Battle Angel Alita and Kevin Costner’s Waterworld (1995), there is no chance of recovery, no hope for a better future; only an everlasting struggle for survival.
I consider myself Ottensian Dieselpunk. I was wondering in which category other's considered themselves.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Caerulctor on -
I feel more like a retro-futurist who takes inspiration anywhere from the mid-aughts to the fifties, centered maybe on the late 20s-early 30s. But ultimately I don't think dieselpunk is about styles or eras, but about redefining how humans fit into a modern, technological world; a protest, of sorts, that accepts and celebrates our technological accomplishments, but at the same time puts the human element at the center instead of shrinking it down to pixel-size, making us atoms in a vast network whose purpose, functioning, and controllers are totally opaque to most of us, and which hardly seems to be designed for ordinary people any more.
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Permalink Reply by Larry on -
Very cool, deep thoughts there. I'm going to chew on that one for a while.
Caerulctor said:
I feel more like a retro-futurist who takes inspiration anywhere from the mid-aughts to the fifties, centered maybe on the late 20s-early 30s. But ultimately I don't think dieselpunk is about styles or eras, but about redefining how humans fit into a modern, technological world; a protest, of sorts, that accepts and celebrates our technological accomplishments, but at the same time puts the human element at the center instead of shrinking it down to pixel-size, making us atoms in a vast network whose purpose, functioning, and controllers are totally opaque to most of us, and which hardly seems to be designed for ordinary people any more.
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Permalink Reply by Caerulctor on
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I do want to write something more on the subject at some time. But for the time being, I'll just point to the Clean the Fan video, which offers a very small example of how essentially hostile modern technology has become to the practice of being human. If someone wants to design a dieselpunk computer, one way to go about it is to stick a rusty, olive drab corrugated metal casing over it and, if ambitious, put in some toggle switches or hook it to an old teletype keyboard. But a more essentially dieselpunk computer would be, I think, one that you can (a) drop out of a second-story window, pick up, and have it still function and (b) repair by yourself with a manual, a wrench, a screwdriver, and a bit of elbow grease. A machine which the designer has made on a human scale, for humans, whose owner is not only trusted but expected to take the lid off and poke around inside.
Larry said:
Very cool, deep thoughts there. I'm going to chew on that one for a while.
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Permalink Reply by J.R. on -
What the article calls 'Piecraftian dieselpunk' seems to me to be a brand of alternate history (some of it extrapolated from plausible scenarios), whereas Ottensian is more like a retro fantasy-land where history got broken in shipping. But there's so much overlap that most dieselpunk visions (such as Sky Captain) can be said to embrace both.
I love it in either form, but I'm not convinced there is a clear dichotomy, at least not with the provided examples...
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Permalink Reply by Larry on
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Very good points. You're right that it's more complicated than the article presented.
In my blog I wrote that the two flavors are actually broken down into subclasses: Hopeful Ottensian, Dark Ottensian, Dystopian Piecraftian and Post-apocalyptic Piecraftian. So you are very much on target that dieselpunk is more than just the dichotomy of two flavors.
Also, these flavors and subclasses are simply trends within the genre that have so far been documented. I think there are more trends already developing in the genre, which I suspect we'll be reading about over the next few months.
One other important point. In the first article on this in my blog I wrote, "Just like a recipe includes a variety of flavors from many ingredients most dieselpunks mix the different flavors and sub-classes into what the genre means to each person." Once again, you and I agree what dieselpunk means to each of us is more complicated than just these flavors and subclasses.
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J.R. said:
What the article calls 'Piecraftian dieselpunk' seems to me to be a brand of alternate history (some of it extrapolated from plausible scenarios), whereas Ottensian is more like a retro fantasy-land where history got broken in shipping. But there's so much overlap that most dieselpunk visions (such as Sky Captain) can be said to embrace both.
I love it in either form, but I'm not convinced there is a clear dichotomy, at least not with the provided examples...
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Permalink Reply by J.R. on
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From my understanding, early 20th century retro aesthetics are heavily intertwined with -- even inextricable from -- dieselpunk per se. Which would disqualify Mad Max, Waterworld, and definitely Battle Angel Alita. Certain dystopian visions like Brazil and Dark City would still qualify, though.
I'm wondering where wartime espionage fiction, colonial pulp adventures far removed from urban settings (like Doc Savage and Indiana Jones), dystopianism of a pre-war sort (like Zamyatin or Kafka), and Lovecraftian occult / Cthulhu Mythos fiction fit into this scheme. They seem to muddle any clear dichotomy, don't they? They've certainly influenced both camps. For my part, I've always melded it all together in my mind.
Ottens' initial article about the definition of dieselpunk seems spot-on but 'Piecraftian' doesn't seem like a big enough thing to represent half of a split...
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Permalink Reply by Larry on
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Excellent point, J.R. I share your concern about Mad Max, Waterworld, etc... To me there needs to be decodence, in other words a feel of the diesel era, in the production. The term "diesel" doesn't mean simply the presence of an internal combustion engine. Otherwise we would have to classify movies like Cannon Ball Run as some form of "dieselpunk" simply because it involved a car race.
You've raised a good question also. Some of the those would fit into the sub-class of Dark Ottensian, such as the Lovecraft Mythos. I think the same for Indiana Jones. I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know enough about Doc Savage to have an opinion.
J.R. said:I'm wondering where wartime espionage fiction, colonial pulp adventures far removed from urban settings (like Doc Savage and Indiana Jones), dystopianism of a pre-war sort (like Zamyatin or Kafka), and Lovecraftian occult / Cthulhu Mythos fiction fit into this scheme. They seem to muddle any clear dichotomy, don't they? They've certainly influenced both camps. For my part, I've always melded it all together in my mind.
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Permalink Reply by J.R. on
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Hahaha, now that I think about it, I could live in a world where 'Every Which Way But Loose' is considered dieselpunk, if only because this genre could use more orangutan buddy comedies.
I'm wary of all this over-classification, though I find their rationales thought-provoking. Your blog goes a long way toward remedying the current lack of a 'dieselpunk bible' (as currently exists for steampunk in books by Jess Nevins and others), and it's that kind of academic basis that helps us define dieselpunk in the first place. I just have the idea that this definition is still evolving -- in a way that it isn't for, say, cyberpunk -- and that all these sub-taxonomies may be jumping the gun a little for a genre and community that's quite young yet.
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Permalink Reply by Larry on
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Thanks, JR. I hope my blog is helpful in advancing dieselpunk.
I agree that dieselpunk is very much a growing, vibrant genre and I think these "sub-taxonomies" are a part of the natural growth of dieselpunk as it develops its identity. They can be helpful as long as we don't take them as dogma but use them to further our understanding of the genre. If they become a burden or restrictive then we would want to stop using them.
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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Wolery on -
Well, I don't know what to say. My kind of alternate history would be a world where Hitler dies in 42, Goring takes over, purges the really, really crazies in the SS, essentially vassilates the USSR and when peace comes with Britain one of the items is unrestricted Jewish immigration to Palestine. So Nazi victory without the genocide. And then of course seeing the Nazi system crack in the later stages of the Cold War. Happy Fatherland basically.
In my own project, Defender of the Reich is definitely Ottensian, in terms of advanced technology, radical female emancipation (at a price), techno music (The Tron Legacy soundtrack would fit right into the avant garde of Futurmusik), and the hope of a better world. On the other hand it involves lots of occult stuff, good people selling out to monsters (this is true on all sides), it takes a very dark look at the concept of Unconditional surrender and victory at any price and even has very dark scenes in Auschwitz IV (the extermination camp portion).
But I actually wonder about when Dieselpunk becomes absurd. My big thing is that part of me wants to have Defender of the Reich be the 80s in the 40s (except in fashion). That and Wilhelm II, the 80 something year old former Kaiser of Germany is a freaking shock jock. In this world he went public against Hitler in 1932, and ran a radio show in Holland from then on as a chief source of opposition to the Nazi regime which he deplores and will oppose it even if it means he will never be restored (historically he DID deplore the Nazis, but kept quiet so maybe his family would get the throne back). And because he's actually a learned and curious guy, his show is a call in and they discuss anything and everything. And when the war hits, he goes to London and broadcasts there to ferment anti-Nazi sentiment, only to be cruelly disillusioned that the Allies intend to brutalize Germany whether the Nazis rule or not. Like I said, potentially absurd. So I was wondering where approximately that line is.
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Permalink Reply by Leviathan on -
Your idea reminds me of a book I read a few years ago, Harry Turtledove's "in the presence of mine enemies".
Charlotte Wolery said:
Well, I don't know what to say. My kind of alternate history would be a world where Hitler dies in 42, Goring takes over, purges the really, really crazies in the SS, essentially vassilates the USSR and when peace comes with Britain one of the items is unrestricted Jewish immigration to Palestine. So Nazi victory without the genocide. And then of course seeing the Nazi system crack in the later stages of the Cold War. Happy Fatherland basically.
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